Improvisation on Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7

[christianm77]

I'm thinking of him using a Mixo (b9) scale over a dom7 chord. For example, Blues for Alice, the second half of the second measure (over A7) is C# Bb G G# | A

He uses that motif a lot.

Ah yeah, got you...

We then have the phrase you indicate. This is an enclosure of A of course, but why the C#/Db?
TBH I look at that and think.... You guessed it, C mixolydian with the C raised to a C#. Just the second half of the bar, right?

Thinking about it the distinction is completely non existent because you can just pop in the C#/Db whenever you like into a C dominant scale, and there you go. To taste. In descending scales it sounds good to be C# though, and scales normally descend in bebop. I often play C-C#-E-F-G etc too, so you could see that as your scale.

What I find interesting is that in the first half of the bar is that we have that B natural - kind of an A dominant/mixolydian vibe for a minor dominant, no? Charlie Christian used to do that to, check out the last eight of I Found a New Baby for instance...

The whole bar won't be C mixo b9/#1 obviously cos you have the accented B on beat 2.

So ZX Barry brain 48K spits out - 2 beats of A dominant, 2 beats of C dominant with a C# (A7b9.)

But, alternatively look at that whole bar as one scale, and he have everything A mixolydian save for a the optional Bb. So A mixolydian b2/#1?

Cool. That might be fun to play with as an alternative approach. Similar logic really. So these scales are pretty close:

C dom #1/b9:
A Bb C C# D E F G

A dom #1/b9:
A A#/Bb B C# D E F# G

The main difference is the optional inclusion of that B and the fun 13 on the A7 chord - F#. A13b9. Hip.

What do you think?

OTOH, there's not enough notes to favour C dom #1 or C dom b2 in the second half.

If that makes any ****ing sense at all. :-)

[christianm77]

TL;DR C dominant b9/C dominant #1 - the distinction doesn't matter, cos you are always free to use the C or C#/Db whenever you like and sounds good to you.

[christianm77]

Sure, then we arrive back at Reg minor, built on the A7. Which, as you know is very convenient to bopify.

Got there before me in far fewer words.

[christianm77]

And guess what.... it's also the same notes as the F Major 6-Diminished scale.

I'm going to need a lie down, I'm getting over excited.

Barry's a sly old fox.

[christianm77]

Oh, trust me, we all know it at this point.

Yeah I mean, of course it's obvious it's the same notes, but the true meaning of that really just jumped out at me.

Sorry if I'm laboriously stating something you've already known for ages, but:

Deciding whether you have a b2 or a #1 (b6 or #5 from the POV of the maj6-dim), is really saying, am I going to major or relative minor isn't it? In Fmaj6-dim you have two potential scales if you like, the

F harmonic major - which is the Db descending to C
So that gives us harmonically Dm7b5, C7b9, Bbm(maj7), Eo7 - all that good stuff. Pulls us back to I.
Jacob Collier and Steve Coleman can blather on about negative harmony here.

And D harmonic minor - which gives us the C# ascending to D
So the gives us C#o7, Em7b5, A7b9

(Note in both cases we are kind of using mode V if you like, not the notes of the I triad so much)

What's the difference between Eo7 and C#o7 you ask? Function.

But it's just the same note used as a different function. A deep duality.

Duh, it's obvious really, I even play this stuff, but I never joined it together, probably because I'm so used to seeing the maj6 dim for harmony and the mixo #1 stuff for lines.

I'm sure Alan Kingstone can laugh at me for not knowing this. Come to think of this I kind of remember BH discussing this with reference to Bach and his interrupted cadences.

Anyway, as you were.

[christianm77]

You say the C and C# are up for grabs. Have you tried putting the F and the F# up for grabs, or the Eb and the E? This is quite easy to visualize at the fifth fret. It sort of opens up diminished sounds, while anchoring itself to the familiar F6 diminished note pool.

Via diminished symmetry. The use of A mixo #1/b9 in Blues for Alice is kind of an example of this.

TBH I haven't done much work on diminished symmetry etc recently other than the obvious stuff, repeat up a minor 3rd etc.

But I may well do. Dim symmetry opens up a whole world. A lot of Barry's stuff relates to it as well.

[christianm77]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as know-it-all-y (which I am not). Just having some fun with you. Also, I shouldn't presume what anyone else does or does not understand.

TBF it's probably something you've been saying for months and I've been going 'oh no no no Fmaj6-dim has nothing at all to do with lines' :-)

[ragman1]

I use D harm. Nice 'n easy. What's wrong with it?

[pingu]

Thanks Mr C
Great stuff ...

Talking 251 in Amin as in your vid

For the Bmin7b5
Rather than thinking Gdom back door
And then G7b9 (ie G#dim)
(I call that leading diminished)

I 'think' I'm thinking Dmin
then Ddim (=G#dim)

or Bmin7b5 to Bdim (=Bb7b9)

Same thing , same sub's
Fmaj etc

But my lines aren't as good as yours !

[christianm77]

Thanks Mr C
Great stuff ...

Talking 251 in Amin as in your vid

For the Bmin7b5
Rather than thinking Gdom back door
And then G7b9 (ie G#dim)
(I call that leading diminished)

I 'think' I'm thinking Dmin
then Ddim (=G#dim)

or Bmin7b5 to Bdim (=Bb7b9)

Same thing , same sub's
Fmaj etc

But my lines aren't as good as yours !

Thanks!

Yeah there's loads of ways to go about it.... I think it's good to try out a few different approaches. I've looked at it the way you describe as well.

[craigoslo]

Question 1 - how long does that Dbdim7 stick around for?

Then decide whether or not to ignore it.

If you decide to engage with it, the best thing I've found is to treat it as a C7 chord and if you want, then raise the C to a C#. So play C mixolydian and raise the C to a C#.

I find it easier to get a melodic flow through the changes this way.

So

Dm7 C7 (C#) Cm7 F7

By the way this funny scale also expresses the A7b9 sound. Neat huh? So by changing c to c# you can move between C7 and A7b9.

Also the whole half scale works particularly well on this chord, more do than on a leading tone dominant.

I basically do the same thing but I think of it in the context of the key.
The other chords are all diatonic and therefore use the notes of the Bb major scale.

If you flatten the third and fifth step of the Bb major scale, that basically gives you a Db whole1/2 tone scale that works great over the Dbdim. And it's only two notes that need to be changed.

Christian: I've been getting into Barry Harris big time in the last week. Those videos on youtube from the Hague have some pearls in them.

[ragman1]

If I can do it so can you lot! My demo only took me two minutes.

Would you mind demonstrating your ideas with short sound clips? Just one would be worth a thousand words - and if it provides beautiful sounds I'll be the first to acknowledge it (and steal it).

Thanks.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure this is being done for the benefit of the OP and I find that grating. He can't be at the level you're talking and I doubt if it's helping him.

[christianm77]

Wall given I tea leafed my ideas off Barry Harris and Charlie Parker it would be particularly churlish of me to object to anyone stealing any of my ideas.

Especially since I have spent about a phonebooks worth of text and a 20m video trying to explain it.

Imagine if I said 'Hi - you can't use that! I'm going to sue!'

[ColinO]

Wall given I tea leafed my ideas off Barry Harris and Charlie Parker it would be particularly churlish of me to object to anyone stealing any of my ideas.

Especially since I have spent about a phonebooks worth of text and a 20m video trying to explain it.

Imagine if I said 'Hi - you can't use that! I'm going to sue!'

Please excuse my simple-mindedness. I'm just learning. Is what you are saying that you can use the BH I6/dim scale over the V7b9? And the iim7b5?

[ragman1]

a phonebooks worth of text and a 20m video

That's the problem. A couple of minutes' soundbite would have done it all. Then you could've explained what you did :-)

[christianm77]

Please excuse my simple-mindedness. I'm just learning. Is what you are saying that you can use the BH I6/dim scale over the V7b9? And the iim7b5?

It's not so much OVER - it's more that the IIm7b5 and V7b9 come FROM the scale. In Barry's understanding.

[christianm77]

That's the problem. A couple of minutes' soundbite would have done it all. Then you could've explained what you did :-)

Actually my first post on the matter I think was absolutely clear.

The thing is people like to theorise.

What I'm talking about is a process - take the dominant (mixolydian) scale raise 1, and you have a scale that runs smoothly over the dim7. C7 scale, raise C to C#, play on C#o7. For instance.

That's it.

JUST PICK UP A GUITAR AND ****ING TRY IT!!!!! ;-) See if you like it. Can't say fairer than that.

But people here DON'T just do it. They question, they second guess, analyse and they say things like 'oh it's harmonic minor' (well duh.) And then TBF I join in and make it worse cos I'm just as bad if not worse. People seem to want to understand something before they try it.

But that's not the point - the point is to crank the handle and see what comes out.

Music PRACTICE not music THEORY.

Anyway, you have the video. That covers everything I have mentioned here. I may do another one focussing on this progression Dm Dbo7 Cm which should be a bit shorter.

Lastly, I'm not being funny, but you could take the raw material I am giving you and fail to come up with a good line. This is an obvious problem when talking about scales as a source of improvisation. You need to know how to play a scale so that it sounds like a line. Barry has a system for this also, but I'm not going to be able to give that here.

[ragman1]

Ok, I've done it again. This is the beginning of Insensatez.

Dm9 - % - Dbo - %
Cm6 - % - G7/B - % - (BbM7)

There are four versions, each with something different over the two bars of Dbo. The last one is particularly interesting.

1) D harmonic minor
2) G dim H/W (or F W/H)
3) Db melodic minor (my idea, I think it works)
4) C mixb9 (BigDaddyLoveHandles' idea - which I really like)

[ragman1]

JUST PICK UP A GUITAR AND ****ING TRY IT!!!!!

I already did, obviously.

Anyway, you have the video.

I'm not interested in a 20 min rambly video. I've got better things to do.

I am giving you

Thank you, O great teacher! If I want a guru I'll ask for one. I'm not sure you're not in love with yourself, old bean.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity...

[ColinO]

christianm77 - I very much appreciate your posts and the videos you put up. I don't often get all of what you are saying but almost always get some great nuggets of information that I can use in my playing - not often to the depth that you are getting into but that's because I'm further down the slope than you are. This idea is a great example. Keep rambling man!

[Runepune]

2) G dim H/W (or F W/H)

That spot is a complete A7b9 with the melody note. Playing G H/W may raise some eyebrows...A H/W fits perfectly though

[christianm77]

I already did, obviously.



I'm not interested in a 20 min rambly video. I've got better things to do.



Thank you, O great teacher! If I want a guru I'll ask for one. I'm not sure you're not in love with yourself, old bean.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity...

Whatever man, take it or leave it. If you have better things to do, then why engage to begin with? It's like you are looking for attention.

More positively, if you are interested in this stuff just go and buy Talk Jazz by Roni Ben Hur.

Anyway, the idea of me being a guru is horrendous. If that ever happens (unlikely), just shoot me.

I'm toying with the idea of taking down the Scrapbook channel, think it's in a slightly uneasy space between Vlog and lesson. It takes a lot of effort to come up with something short and to the point. Most of my vids are just off the cuff. The question becomes do I want to do the youtube thing seriously?

[christianm77]

BTW I'm shifting more towards Eb7 with the E on Dbo7.

[Lobomov]

The question becomes do I want to do the youtube thing seriously?

Why does everything have to be serious?

Plenty of youtubers trying to give actual lessons, wouldn't your say?

[christianm77]

Why does everything have to be serious?

Plenty of youtubers trying to give actual lessons, wouldn't your say?

True